[After e-mailing a version of my "Soul-Set Time?" comments to friends, I got this reply from one of the gals I was having so much fun talking to in the library yesterday. I thought her remarks were more than worth reprinting here.]

"'But, if Wesley really did (consciously, or unconsciously) set out to get himself killed that night, simply because he had nothing left in this world to HOPE for or live for..., then we're faced with the possibility that the destruction of his hope also rendered his loyalty shaky, since his own death threw the success of the whole mission into jeopardy.'

"As to Wesley, I am sad to say, I think in the end he was without hope, but willing to die because it was asked of him. Even in his myriad betrayals, he fought hard because he thought he was doing something right for the future. Without Fred, and without the friends he figured wouldn't last the night, he was ready to die. He was tired of fighting the fight.

"As for Lorne. He is the one I really see as having lost the most hope. Like Wesley, he takes the easier way out. He leaves his friends because in the end, he doesn't want to see more death. He doesn't know anymore where the lines can be drawn. He has no more hope or faith in those who are around him. He, who can read someone, can no longer tell good from bad. Wasn't there something about him reading the jerk who was responsible for Fred's death [Knox]? In a way, the one who sees in a magical way, while Xander could see in a mortal way, was left in a sense blind.

"Does hope have to necessarily be hope for the self? I don't know that I would argue that they had all lost hope and were running on loyalty. I think that even if they died, they had hope that they made some sort of difference by fighting the good fight. By showing Gunn with Anne, we saw the good that Angel and the MoG ('Ministers of Grace' -- TWOP) accomplished even though they hadn't won the war. And Anne hasn't won the war.

"Hope isn't about the winning, it's about being a part of a longer process whether or not you are alive to see the end result. You keep fighting the good fight, and those you touch will carry on your work. For every Kate (who washed out) they touched, there was an Anne who picked up the mantle. Even though only the earthly connections of the senior partners in the Black Thorns died, it was a significant blow - a part of the longer term process of the apocalypse. By weakening WR and H, they give the Scoobies and the Slayer network an advantage. In a sense, win or lose this particular battle, they will help Buffy and company win the war. That's hope.

"And might I add to the Wesley thing, he never could act alone. Even in betrayal he turned to the Watchers Council, or Holtz, or Illyria.

"In the end, when he was supposed to be able to act alone, Illyria was the one who fought his good fight for him."

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