Fandom paradigm shift? : comments [Confessions of a Liberal Puritan]

I don't know about any specific kerfluffle, but there has been variuous moments since season 6 (when I joined fandom) of "Bangel fans are stupid preteens who can't let go and grow up. Spuffy fans are stupid preteens who like rapists and evil men." And then there was the issue of the ones the sympathied with Spike as the victim of abuse and grew to hate Buffy, and the ones that became retroactive Bangel fans after SR and started to hate Spike. But except for a few grumbles, I thought most groups kept to their own forums. Of course, I never went to TWOP, so I don't know what kerfluffles they might have had.

When you say a Spuffy/Slash thing, that makes me sad. Also makes me kinda glad I've been away from my friends list for a while. Was it more than "Dammit, Annie and Wisteria are writng slash now!" ? Was there an actual big THING that I missed? Is everyone back to being tolerant again, or are people still taking sides?

What you said about slashers resenting being called a trend confused me though. I've seen slash fans with icons proclaiming that S/A was the new trend, and how delighted they were.

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What you said about slashers resenting being called a trend confused me though. I've seen slash fans with icons proclaiming that S/A was the new trend, and how delighted they were.

Kita had some that she was using ironically - since she has been S/A OTP since way back in the well School Hard Days and now it is all "trendy." Almost all of the "trendy" S/A icons I have seen were in a direct response to that charge. The icon I am using on this post was a direct response to how we exploit these poor men for our own sexual gratification charge. It is also a play on the silly "No Apologies" kerfuffle. Seriously - we will squabble over anything. We squabbled over icons that said "No apologies" fer Gawd's sake. I no longer worry about the state of fandom and how will we ever repair these ties. I grab popcorn and sit back and howl. And occasionally marvel at the stupid and sometimes participate. Depends on how motivated I am, actually.

But yeah - there was a pretty big Slash/Spuffy (then it became just slash/het) kerfuffle thingy around about in August, I think. It started when I was at Vividcon, so I missed the kickoff - which I think started when

wisteria innocently asked about trends in fanfiction and then from there it just exploded - apparently there was a lot of resentment toward slash fans from one segment of the fandom and since slash fans aren't exactly known for their restraint it just kinda took off.

No biggie - it actually happens in every fandom, this wasn't a new and unique kerfuffle, although the "What about the gay men?!" part was pretty new - the Buffy fen are actually probably due a Feedback kerfuffle next- we haven't had one of those in a while.

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What's ironic about hearing this is that about a month ago I got into an argument over slash, and I don't even like slash, but I was busy trying to say "to each his own, it doesn't bother me" , and they were trying to accuse me of turning traitor or something (which I didn't, which was the frustrating part!). It was a big headache. Probably was happening around the same time you mean. I do think I remember that trends discussion you're talking about in Alanna's journal.

Seriously - we will squabble over anything. We squabbled over icons that said "No apologies" fer Gawd's sake.

You mean all the "Spike fan, no apologies" and Slash fan, no apologies" icons? Damn. That's almost funny.

You know I do remember a sort of kerfluffle thing happening in the beginning of september, something with all the slash fans (or was it AtS fans) at one of the conventions being mad at all spike/spuffy fangirls crowding them or something. That kinda made my eyes bug out, because getting mad at someone for convention behavior is kind of pointless.

Hm. I wonder if its possible to have a straightforward discussion of the validity of slash as a character ship (not a fandom ship), without having people get upset. Sometimes I'd like to sit down with yaoi (slash) fans of Gundam Wing and debate with them why Heero and Duo are not gay, even if Quatre and Trowa might be. Or the same thing with Highlander. But it seems that it always goes badly, and then no one ever really gets to hear the other side's reasons. I imagine it probably is an argument best had in person, where you can read each other's expressions.

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You mean all the "Spike fan, no apologies" and Slash fan, no apologies" icons? Damn. That's almost funny.

No dude - that is funny - fandom is freaking hilarious.

Let's see - the no apologies Kerfuffle was before the slash-het stand off but after the great James Marster's hates Spike debate post one of the conventions he did this summer. At some point there was this huge "Real Person Slash is of the Devil" and the responding "No it isn't *you* are!" kerfuffle - but that one rotates every six months like your tires - so to call much attention to it is rather anti-climatic. And the little Spike fan-guurrlss tiffy really wasn't a kerfuffle in the purest sense, just a coupla people were annoyed by the OMIGAWD!!1111!!! twinkies at a con. Actually, I think at that one even JM was expressing annoyance so it must have been bad.

As far as explaining the validity of slash - why we prefer it - it is a very hot button issue and mainly b/c a lot of people who don't get the appeal to slash sometimes end up inadvertently insulting the people who do when asking.

See - here is the deal - why we like slash is closely tied to our sexuality. It is something that turns us on. It is a part of our sexual makeup and to have someone question that, albeit even innocently, - well it is like someone asking "Why do you like girls" or "why do you like boys" or why are you who you are? Which, if you are sensitive about the subject (and for most people their sexuality is a hugely sensitive topic) it can almost appear as an attack - a "WHY THE HELL DO YOU LIKE THIS!!! EXPLAIN YOURSELF, WHORE" - and I really can't explain why I find slash so frickin erotic anymore than I can explain why my eyes are blue. Well, actually that is a bad example because my eyes are blue due to a lack of melanin, but you get my drift.

Now if you want to have a deep and meaningful discussion with me about why I think Wes has been dominating Angel's ass for about a year and half now - I am more than willing to discuss. But why do I like it? Um ...cause I do. It is hot.

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Now if you want to have a deep and meaningful discussion with me about why I think Wes has been dominating Angel's ass for about a year and half now - I am more than willing to discuss. But why do I like it? Um ...cause I do. It is hot.

:laugh: Not tonight, I don't think. But I'll definitely take a rain check on that, and call you on it another time, when I'm more awake.

I was thinking of posting the above question (about slash debate) on my LJ to ask more people-- do you mind if I include your answer, too? I could easiy make it a friends locked entry, if the topic is sensitive to you. Somehow I think you'd be fine if I shouted your opinion about naked Wes/Angel to the sky and beyond, but best to ask anyway. :)

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I'm not sure if I was clear about this in my other reply. When I say discussion of slash, my curiosity is not so much why people find the idea attractive (I'm thinking a lot about what you said about insulting people's sexuality preferences), but rather why people who defend slash on a story/character basis-- like what you said about Angel and Wes. I would find it more likely to believe in S/A than A/W as likely possibilities within the storyline given to us (though this is totally a bad example because I haven't watched near as much AtS as most everyone else in LJ), and that might be a discussion I'd want to have, later when I've seen seasons 1-3 and know what I'm talking about. See the difference I'm getting at, though? Not so much "why do you like the idea of them together", but rather "why do you feel that they are together or will be and that is how we are meant to read it"--- the latter being much more familair to me in the Gundam Wing fandom than in Jossverse. For shows like Buffy and Angel, and books like Harry Potter, I've seen in much of fandom there a well-recognized line between what we'd like to see happen /imagine happening, and what we think the writers are daring enough (or too politically correct) to do with their main characters. When I used to be in GW fandom, that line was non-existant, and debates of slash (called yaoi in anime fandom) were in the most literal sense, not the theoretical sense.

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Go forth and query the masses and yeah - I have nothing to hide in who/what I like. I'm not one with the shy-slash-fangirl.

As far as *why* we believe the couples we believe in - well it is all a matter of subtext and what we believe is actually happening just offscreen, but for whatever reason the writers can't openly acknowledge it.

Remember "The X-files"? Remember after the episode "Pusher" and when Scully approaches Mulder in the hospital the little finger cuddle she gives him? Remember how excited everyone got after that? Remember how there was like a gazillion "They go home and get it on!" fics born immediately after that? It is just like that. Exactly. Mulder and Scully for a few brief glorius years (we won't talk about later) *were* a slash couple.

The M/S finger cuddle was a lot like Wes feeding Angel his blood. Except wait! That was much more intense. Wes slit his arm with a knife and fed himself to Angel. But to the fans it was all the same. We see a connection and we see love and some of us also see Ass-Domination.

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Remember "The X-files"? Remember after the episode "Pusher" and when Scully approaches Mulder in the hospital the little finger cuddle she gives him? Remember how excited everyone got after that? Remember how there was like a gazillion "They go home and get it on!" fics born immediately after that? It is just like that. Exactly. Mulder and Scully for a few brief glorius years (we won't talk about later) *were* a slash couple.

I cry, because I have no idea what you're talking about. I barely remember that episode (guy w/ a tumor doing psychic things to kill people, right?), and when I watched most of my years of the XF, I was not knowledgable about the titles of episodes. I was about 14, and didn't care.

But I can equate to the squeally sentiment. I did a lot of squealing for shippiness, and a lot of inferring and reading between the lines (sometimes I was practically reading between the letters.)

The M/S finger cuddle was a lot like Wes feeding Angel his blood. Except wait! That was much more intense. Wes slit his arm with a knife and fed himself to Angel. But to the fans it was all the same. We see a connection and we see love and some of us also see Ass-Domination.

And what about themes of friendship, idol-worship (probably not the case with W/A), or brotherhood (sister too)? Aren't those strong interpretations too? Or does reading into slash not necessarily contradict all those other themes.

Anyway, those are just general rhetorical thoughts. Like I said, I'm canon-illiterate about this show right now (except for the really big things that I figured out from reading Buffy fic, and watching about 1/3 of the episodes last season), so my arguements are kinda going nowhere.

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And what about themes of friendship, idol-worship (probably not the case with W/A), or brotherhood (sister too)? Aren't those strong interpretations too? Or does reading into slash not necessarily contradict all those other themes.

Oh Idol Worship is absolutely the case with W/A - it was the basis of season one. And while prefering a slash pairing does not require these things to be present in the absolute canon (as in preferring a noncanon, though het pairing) - in order to seduce me they need to be there in an abundance. I will not live and breathe and hurt for a pairing unless I believe there is a deep connection. So it is not all about Wes dominating Angel's ass - although there is fun to be had there as well - but how did they get to the point - where they are now in season 5 and Wes is so obviously dominating his ass - what brought them there.

If you are interested in reading an excellent essay about Wesley, Angel, canon, subtext and stereotypes - please check out this post:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/thebratqueen/195009.html

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Oh Idol Worship is absolutely the case with W/A - it was the basis of season one.

Ah, I was thinking in terms of season 4. I really need these things to start rerunning on FX or something!

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AtS is now in reruns on TNT.

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oh, when did this start?! Damn it, I need to pay more attention, now that I'm going to be an AtS fangirl and all.

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TNT started Monday-Friday showings of season 1 of AtS a week ago (Sept. 29), so today at 4 PM Central (5 PM Eastern) they'll be up to episode 1.06. However, at least in my area, the local WB station has just recently started Sunday night (10 PM Central) re-runs of season 1, so you can still catch episode 1.03 ("In the Dark" -- the Spike/Gem of Amara crossover episode) this Sunday, Oct. 12, if you have a WB affiliate.

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Hm, they're just starting then. Thanks!

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I just put up the question, but I decided not to put up your first response because that was more about "why do you like it" and not "why do you think it is so", which as I said is what my question really was (and which we've talked about some too.) Anyway, thanks.

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Confessions of a Liberal Puritan

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