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revdorothyl at 11:43pm on 30/09/2003 under fandom research
revdorothyl at 11:43pm on 30/09/2003 under fandom researchRecently (okay, it was just an hour ago on AIM), I made this offhand comment to a friend who'd had help from another fan friend in improving her website, "It's good to have friends in all corners of fandom." Her response was: "I suppose. Lots of those corners are like boxing rings right now, with the Spuffy people arguing with the slash fans. It's very silly."
For some reason, her characterization of the current state of BtVS fandom online made me think of that old standard of graduate education and corporate retreats, Thomas Kuhn's THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS. Being tired and somewhat over-full of spanakopitas from my evening's entertainment (killer Scrabble with a fellow grad student), I started to prate along the following lines, and afterward decided that my friend might be right in suggesting that there was some method to my madness. Here's the gist, so that you, dear friend and reader, can make up your own minds about the method/madness question:
"That silly arguing sounds like what precedes a paradigm shift, if Kuhn is to be believed -- everybody gets busy arguing about the rules and trying to slice the pies a little thinner, draw the boundary lines a little tighter. Maybe Buffy Fandom is in for a paradigm shift, a la Quantum physics, any day now? It seems as though the big questions (redemption, meaning of life, something to sing about, nature of love and vocation, etc.) aren't being asked and answered much right now, because we're on the verge of coming up with a new way to look at things. '...And the world ain't comin' to an end, my friend; the world's just comin' to a start...'
"Maybe that's what's happening, really. Or maybe, if we say it, it will become fact -- this being a quantum mechanics universe in which observation affects what's observed, and all."
While I'm waiting with great hopefulness to see what the new season of "Angel" (with Spike!) brings tomorrow night, I'm going to hold on to my paradigm shift idea as long as I can. I mean, I can't believe that all the creative energy and forward momentum of BtVS fandom has dried up or reached a dead-end with the ending of the show. All that good, creative, life-giving energy has to have something up its sleeve, something that's about to be born. 'I feel it in my heart: the world is comin' to a start.'
['...' lyrics quoted from the musical "Purlie"]
For some reason, her characterization of the current state of BtVS fandom online made me think of that old standard of graduate education and corporate retreats, Thomas Kuhn's THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS. Being tired and somewhat over-full of spanakopitas from my evening's entertainment (killer Scrabble with a fellow grad student), I started to prate along the following lines, and afterward decided that my friend might be right in suggesting that there was some method to my madness. Here's the gist, so that you, dear friend and reader, can make up your own minds about the method/madness question:
"That silly arguing sounds like what precedes a paradigm shift, if Kuhn is to be believed -- everybody gets busy arguing about the rules and trying to slice the pies a little thinner, draw the boundary lines a little tighter. Maybe Buffy Fandom is in for a paradigm shift, a la Quantum physics, any day now? It seems as though the big questions (redemption, meaning of life, something to sing about, nature of love and vocation, etc.) aren't being asked and answered much right now, because we're on the verge of coming up with a new way to look at things. '...And the world ain't comin' to an end, my friend; the world's just comin' to a start...'
"Maybe that's what's happening, really. Or maybe, if we say it, it will become fact -- this being a quantum mechanics universe in which observation affects what's observed, and all."
While I'm waiting with great hopefulness to see what the new season of "Angel" (with Spike!) brings tomorrow night, I'm going to hold on to my paradigm shift idea as long as I can. I mean, I can't believe that all the creative energy and forward momentum of BtVS fandom has dried up or reached a dead-end with the ending of the show. All that good, creative, life-giving energy has to have something up its sleeve, something that's about to be born. 'I feel it in my heart: the world is comin' to a start.'
['...' lyrics quoted from the musical "Purlie"]
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I, too, await the start of Angel with hope in my heart for fandom as well as the series.
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Seriously, I understand the pain of having a somewhat downer of an ender for your favorite pairing (I've never supported a fandom pairing that ended well - even my canonical 'ships end in death or disaster or worse) but to at least have an ending - and then to find out that no - the shiplicious painful ending you got is not it, and the story will continue - the characters will continue,just not together - and meanwhile the slash fans, are justifiably gleeful at the same news -- well discord is bound to be brewing.
So now you have a fandom where the Vampire Slayer is no longer the binding force - but rather the vampires. The two rather sexy, male vampires that have chemistry between themselves galore. From a het-shipper's standpoint, it probably did not seem that fair. A few months before all of this there was a whine on a fan-fiction board at TWOP about how *all* of the good Spuffy writers were now writing Spander (what amused me greatly about that post referenced Anna S. as one of the quality Spuffy writers, now lost to them due to Spander -- anyone that reads her work knows that the het-ness of "Season Noir" is a departure for her, rather than the norm)- I thought it was funny. This summer several other prominent writers in the buffy fandom also wrote a bit of slash - probably most notably Annie Sewell-Jennings. I think it was more of a creative decision for her - an artist does what they are inspired to do - and most people were just continually grateful that she was writing. I, for one, was happy to have more slash and went to the field and picked daisies and tra-la-la'ed my way home. I also understand why a lot of writers were becoming intrigued by the A/S dynamic -- well I am more than understanding of that, I support it as a lifestyle choice, but I understood why the interest was being generated *at this time* - I mean, anticipation is key.
So the charge that resounded throughout the fandom -- that slash is now "trendy" should not have surprised anyone. In actuality the amount of overall slash fiction had not increased, but the fandom-wide prominence of some of the authors had. Which also leads to the nasty backlash against BNFs (otherwise known as either Big Name Fans, or Bare Naked Firemen - you pick which one is appropriate)and several people suddenly having to justify the existence of their fiction. Add to that the ability to gather in new ways with LJ and the summer-time popular flash-fic-a-thons (of which there were several slash only) and never forget for a moment that Spike is going to be on Angel and Chicken Little had to shout that slash is overtaking the fandom and the het-sky is falling. But really it was the "trendy" crack that pissed a lot of us off. Then all of a sudden slash was straight women objectifying straight men (Angel is not gay - he is "straight as a skyscraper", dammit - of course the person that said this later admitted to not actually watching AtS, just BtVS)- but since no one seemed to really care about that (since straight men have been getting a free ride objectifying women -period) then is was straight women objectifying gay men. And then since that was not accurate - a lot of the gals in the fandom protested that they are gay or bi - it just became women objectifying the poor defenseless gay men. And then the cry went up "What about the gay men?!" and truly if fandom wank did not exist by then, it would have been invented for us at this time. We are the wankiest of the wankers and cannot let anything just die. But we were bored and it was another 2 months of hiatus and if you can't flame/snark at your fandom neighbor than who can you flame? Especially since she is so clearly wrong and misguided as to disagree with you.
Now I look forward to the "This Sucks" and the "No it doesn't, you suck" response that a new season always brings. Viva la fandom and may we all live to a series renewal!
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And don't you forget it missy.
But we were bored and it was another 2 months of hiatus and if you can't flame/snark at your fandom neighbor than who can you flame? Especially since she is so clearly wrong and misguided as to disagree with you.
You forgot the Ducks flinging cookie dough all over fandom and declaring victory over a "Maybe sometimes I think that someday it's in the realm of possibility". What I think it boils down to? Rabid 'shippers in all their forms are silly.
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As far as the Ducks go - I never really saw that. Was there a Spuffy/Bangel kerfluffle I missed?? Cause I'm all for some B/A lovin', and I got warm fuzzies over that exchange in "Chosen" but I wouldn't necessarily call it a definitive B/A moment.
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And where I think much of the bad feelings and wars start. Somehow it always shifts from "I prefer this pairing", "That couple pushes my buttons", "They should *so* be doing it"....to "Something is wrong with you if you don't agree with me", "The creators/writers *owe* me this pairing". And suddenly it's not about what floats *your* boat...but a moral judgement on people in kayaks. So if your pairing is confirmed on screen, it's proof that you are the better person. No small wonder hurt feelings, hurled accusations, and kerfuffles ensue.
Was there a Spuffy/Bangel kerfluffle I missed?
I think any major Spuffy/Bangel wars were avoided by the slash/Spuffy explosion...but yes, on the sidelines in smaller ways it's been contributing to the tension IMO, and the Ducks are claiming it as a "victory". I have nightmare inducing fears of the wars that could explode if SMG makes a guest appearance on Angel.
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Ah - well, they are a shifty lot and not to be trusted.
So if your pairing is confirmed on screen, it's proof that you are the better person
I bet the Fred/Gunn and the Faith/Wood people are feeling all smug about now. They are out there, right?
I have nightmare inducing fears of the wars that could explode if SMG makes a guest appearance on Angel.
And yet I could care less about the fandom imploding in on itself - especially over that. Personally, I think a guest appearance would be great and not in the least because she threatened to lock Spike and Angel in a room to wrestle in oil in "Chosen" -- that's my girl! Fandoms are a funny thing and they are durable -- people dust themselves off and move on. Well, some people do. Some people move onto another fandom and that is fine. I think BtVS fandom is shifting to include more AtS and some strictly-only BtVSers may be moving into AtS -- more of a Jossverse deal. Some of us have always been there and like the company, some others are worried about the influx of Spike fans, and some really haven't noticed anything since 2001 and Angel was shirtless for most of ep 2x09.
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But, oddly enough, life has taught me that sometimes, at least, everyone wins.
Could real life possibly be wiser than tv? (I probably shouldn't say this--it will start a kerfuffle of epic proportions.)
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My world as I understand it is collapsing all around me... I feel like Angel when he wached Dru vamp Darla. Or Wes right as the mind-wipe went into effect. Or maybe even Buffy when she was ripped out of Heeeeaven. Or Spike when he tasted Buffy's blood and woke up out of the FE's thrall. Actually, now I feel better cause it all relates to TV and just reinforces what I have become.
Yes, TV - lover, comforter, friend /Homer Simpson
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When you say a Spuffy/Slash thing, that makes me sad. Also makes me kinda glad I've been away from my friends list for a while. Was it more than "Dammit, Annie and Wisteria are writng slash now!" ? Was there an actual big THING that I missed? Is everyone back to being tolerant again, or are people still taking sides?
What you said about slashers resenting being called a trend confused me though. I've seen slash fans with icons proclaiming that S/A was the new trend, and how delighted they were.
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Kita had some that she was using ironically - since she has been S/A OTP since way back in the well School Hard Days and now it is all "trendy." Almost all of the "trendy" S/A icons I have seen were in a direct response to that charge. The icon I am using on this post was a direct response to how we exploit these poor men for our own sexual gratification charge. It is also a play on the silly "No Apologies" kerfuffle. Seriously - we will squabble over anything. We squabbled over icons that said "No apologies" fer Gawd's sake. I no longer worry about the state of fandom and how will we ever repair these ties. I grab popcorn and sit back and howl. And occasionally marvel at the stupid and sometimes participate. Depends on how motivated I am, actually.
But yeah - there was a pretty big Slash/Spuffy (then it became just slash/het) kerfuffle thingy around about in August, I think. It started when I was at Vividcon, so I missed the kickoff - which I think started when
No biggie - it actually happens in every fandom, this wasn't a new and unique kerfuffle, although the "What about the gay men?!" part was pretty new - the Buffy fen are actually probably due a Feedback kerfuffle next- we haven't had one of those in a while.
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Seriously - we will squabble over anything. We squabbled over icons that said "No apologies" fer Gawd's sake.
You mean all the "Spike fan, no apologies" and Slash fan, no apologies" icons? Damn. That's almost funny.
You know I do remember a sort of kerfluffle thing happening in the beginning of september, something with all the slash fans (or was it AtS fans) at one of the conventions being mad at all spike/spuffy fangirls crowding them or something. That kinda made my eyes bug out, because getting mad at someone for convention behavior is kind of pointless.
Hm. I wonder if its possible to have a straightforward discussion of the validity of slash as a character ship (not a fandom ship), without having people get upset. Sometimes I'd like to sit down with yaoi (slash) fans of Gundam Wing and debate with them why Heero and Duo are not gay, even if Quatre and Trowa might be. Or the same thing with Highlander. But it seems that it always goes badly, and then no one ever really gets to hear the other side's reasons. I imagine it probably is an argument best had in person, where you can read each other's expressions.
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No dude - that is funny - fandom is freaking hilarious.
Let's see - the no apologies Kerfuffle was before the slash-het stand off but after the great James Marster's hates Spike debate post one of the conventions he did this summer. At some point there was this huge "Real Person Slash is of the Devil" and the responding "No it isn't *you* are!" kerfuffle - but that one rotates every six months like your tires - so to call much attention to it is rather anti-climatic. And the little Spike fan-guurrlss tiffy really wasn't a kerfuffle in the purest sense, just a coupla people were annoyed by the OMIGAWD!!1111!!! twinkies at a con. Actually, I think at that one even JM was expressing annoyance so it must have been bad.
As far as explaining the validity of slash - why we prefer it - it is a very hot button issue and mainly b/c a lot of people who don't get the appeal to slash sometimes end up inadvertently insulting the people who do when asking.
See - here is the deal - why we like slash is closely tied to our sexuality. It is something that turns us on. It is a part of our sexual makeup and to have someone question that, albeit even innocently, - well it is like someone asking "Why do you like girls" or "why do you like boys" or why are you who you are? Which, if you are sensitive about the subject (and for most people their sexuality is a hugely sensitive topic) it can almost appear as an attack - a "WHY THE HELL DO YOU LIKE THIS!!! EXPLAIN YOURSELF, WHORE" - and I really can't explain why I find slash so frickin erotic anymore than I can explain why my eyes are blue. Well, actually that is a bad example because my eyes are blue due to a lack of melanin, but you get my drift.
Now if you want to have a deep and meaningful discussion with me about why I think Wes has been dominating Angel's ass for about a year and half now - I am more than willing to discuss. But why do I like it? Um ...cause I do. It is hot.
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:laugh: Not tonight, I don't think. But I'll definitely take a rain check on that, and call you on it another time, when I'm more awake.
I was thinking of posting the above question (about slash debate) on my LJ to ask more people-- do you mind if I include your answer, too? I could easiy make it a friends locked entry, if the topic is sensitive to you. Somehow I think you'd be fine if I shouted your opinion about naked Wes/Angel to the sky and beyond, but best to ask anyway. :)
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As far as *why* we believe the couples we believe in - well it is all a matter of subtext and what we believe is actually happening just offscreen, but for whatever reason the writers can't openly acknowledge it.
Remember "The X-files"? Remember after the episode "Pusher" and when Scully approaches Mulder in the hospital the little finger cuddle she gives him? Remember how excited everyone got after that? Remember how there was like a gazillion "They go home and get it on!" fics born immediately after that? It is just like that. Exactly. Mulder and Scully for a few brief glorius years (we won't talk about later) *were* a slash couple.
The M/S finger cuddle was a lot like Wes feeding Angel his blood. Except wait! That was much more intense. Wes slit his arm with a knife and fed himself to Angel. But to the fans it was all the same. We see a connection and we see love and some of us also see Ass-Domination.
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I cry, because I have no idea what you're talking about. I barely remember that episode (guy w/ a tumor doing psychic things to kill people, right?), and when I watched most of my years of the XF, I was not knowledgable about the titles of episodes. I was about 14, and didn't care.
But I can equate to the squeally sentiment. I did a lot of squealing for shippiness, and a lot of inferring and reading between the lines (sometimes I was practically reading between the letters.)
The M/S finger cuddle was a lot like Wes feeding Angel his blood. Except wait! That was much more intense. Wes slit his arm with a knife and fed himself to Angel. But to the fans it was all the same. We see a connection and we see love and some of us also see Ass-Domination.
And what about themes of friendship, idol-worship (probably not the case with W/A), or brotherhood (sister too)? Aren't those strong interpretations too? Or does reading into slash not necessarily contradict all those other themes.
Anyway, those are just general rhetorical thoughts. Like I said, I'm canon-illiterate about this show right now (except for the really big things that I figured out from reading Buffy fic, and watching about 1/3 of the episodes last season), so my arguements are kinda going nowhere.
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Oh Idol Worship is absolutely the case with W/A - it was the basis of season one. And while prefering a slash pairing does not require these things to be present in the absolute canon (as in preferring a noncanon, though het pairing) - in order to seduce me they need to be there in an abundance. I will not live and breathe and hurt for a pairing unless I believe there is a deep connection. So it is not all about Wes dominating Angel's ass - although there is fun to be had there as well - but how did they get to the point - where they are now in season 5 and Wes is so obviously dominating his ass - what brought them there.
If you are interested in reading an excellent essay about Wesley, Angel, canon, subtext and stereotypes - please check out this post:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/thebratqueen/195009.html
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Ah, I was thinking in terms of season 4. I really need these things to start rerunning on FX or something!
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Mer
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I have to wonder though. I know that the whole mess led me to step back and disengage from viewing my shows from any sort of 'shippy perspective (though I was never a hardcore 'shipper to begin with), and I'm not the only one. Many people I once knew as devoted x/y 'shippers are now examining character relationships and fan interaction in a new light. Trying to understand pairing a/z as well as their own preference, looking at character b as something more than the other half of a 'ship, asking questions and looking for answers that don't end in a 'ship affirming kiss. I hope that these are the seeds of a future fandom where 'ship preference (slash or het) becomes secondary to love of the show and characters.
But then sometimes I have a tendency to be a Pollyanna of the first order. :)
you're all right
Oh, dear, am I babbling again?
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I've always wished for more het stuff simply because it's what I like to read and I'm a constant reader, not because I dislike some ship or other. I'd also like to see more stuff where the romance is just in the background of a adventure or mystery but no one writes that and when I try to it's crap.