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I've been fascinated by the recent discussion (ably started and added to by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
shadowscast) of Riley Finn's Christianity on the "First Church of Joss" community (http://community.livejournal.com/churchofjoss/2507.html#cutid1).
Having come to loathe Riley retroactively and perhaps unfairly, after seeing "As You Were" in BtVS season 6, this discussion thread now has me thinking about Riley's possible crisis of faith over the course of his character's development on the series. Maybe, instead of just being the "guy-who's-not-Spike-and-is-therefore-no-damn-good-for-Buffy-in-my-personal-OTP" that Riley turned into (in my mind) by the time he so abruptly left in season 5 . . . maybe, just maybe, there's a lot more Job in Riley than I'd ever noticed before. Maybe there's a place for Riley in the theological chapter of my never-ending dissertation, after all?
Several people on the discussion brought up the idea of the demons and gods of the Buffyverse as being of an entirely different order of being (or existing in an entirely different reality) than the demons and angels and God of the bible.
One of the interesting quotes on this question which I've come across is in Christopher Golden (et al), editors, Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Monster Book (New York: Pocket Books, 2000), p. 6:
Former BtVS writer Dean Batali is quoted as saying, “‘I subscribe to a more biblical view of what demons are. In Buffy lingo, demons and monsters seem interchangeable’” and “‘My viewpoint is that demons have to be invited [into a person’s life]. That’s where I differ a lot from Joss’ theology, if we can call it that. . . . That’s probably why I don’t fear them, because they have to be invited in.’”
As a Presbyterian minister who's been spending way too much time reading theology and psychology (when not lusting after a certain bleached-blond walking paradox vampire) in recent years, I find this proposed distinction between Jossian demons (defined along the lines of "demons happen!", one might say) and the demons associated with much popular Christian theology (more like, "if demons happen, you must've opened the door for them somehow") really fascinating.
On the one hand, you've got the book of Job in the Hebrew Bible, suggesting that sometimes really horrible, monstrous things (demons in a real sense) happen to good people who've done absolutely nothing wrong. On the other hand, you've got most people with religious beliefs, who'd prefer to be able to think that being clean-cut and fighting the good fight provides some protection against the in-roads of evil and unmerited suffering in this world, no matter how much evidence accumulates to the contrary.
And in the middle of all this, perhaps we have Riley Finn? (I'm really trying to get over my knee-jerk resentment of him, and especially of him as the sole exemplar of the church-going Christian on the show, here.) Like Job, Riley tries to make all the right choices, be one of the good guys par excellence, but then he finds himself somehow identified with and even identifying with "demons" and chaos-creatures of all sorts (since I'd argue that the Slayer herself seems reminiscent at times of the Leviathan-loving side of the biblical god). In the end, he may come back to his faith, one could argue, but it's to a faith forever changed and deepened by his discovery of just how much there is "outside the margins" and "beyond the edges" of the orderly creation he was taught about in his Iowa Sunday school.
Maybe?
shadowscast) of Riley Finn's Christianity on the "First Church of Joss" community (http://community.livejournal.com/churchofjoss/2507.html#cutid1).Having come to loathe Riley retroactively and perhaps unfairly, after seeing "As You Were" in BtVS season 6, this discussion thread now has me thinking about Riley's possible crisis of faith over the course of his character's development on the series. Maybe, instead of just being the "guy-who's-not-Spike-and-is-therefore-no-damn-good-for-Buffy-in-my-personal-OTP" that Riley turned into (in my mind) by the time he so abruptly left in season 5 . . . maybe, just maybe, there's a lot more Job in Riley than I'd ever noticed before. Maybe there's a place for Riley in the theological chapter of my never-ending dissertation, after all?
Several people on the discussion brought up the idea of the demons and gods of the Buffyverse as being of an entirely different order of being (or existing in an entirely different reality) than the demons and angels and God of the bible.
One of the interesting quotes on this question which I've come across is in Christopher Golden (et al), editors, Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Monster Book (New York: Pocket Books, 2000), p. 6:
Former BtVS writer Dean Batali is quoted as saying, “‘I subscribe to a more biblical view of what demons are. In Buffy lingo, demons and monsters seem interchangeable’” and “‘My viewpoint is that demons have to be invited [into a person’s life]. That’s where I differ a lot from Joss’ theology, if we can call it that. . . . That’s probably why I don’t fear them, because they have to be invited in.’”
As a Presbyterian minister who's been spending way too much time reading theology and psychology (when not lusting after a certain bleached-blond walking paradox vampire) in recent years, I find this proposed distinction between Jossian demons (defined along the lines of "demons happen!", one might say) and the demons associated with much popular Christian theology (more like, "if demons happen, you must've opened the door for them somehow") really fascinating.
On the one hand, you've got the book of Job in the Hebrew Bible, suggesting that sometimes really horrible, monstrous things (demons in a real sense) happen to good people who've done absolutely nothing wrong. On the other hand, you've got most people with religious beliefs, who'd prefer to be able to think that being clean-cut and fighting the good fight provides some protection against the in-roads of evil and unmerited suffering in this world, no matter how much evidence accumulates to the contrary.
And in the middle of all this, perhaps we have Riley Finn? (I'm really trying to get over my knee-jerk resentment of him, and especially of him as the sole exemplar of the church-going Christian on the show, here.) Like Job, Riley tries to make all the right choices, be one of the good guys par excellence, but then he finds himself somehow identified with and even identifying with "demons" and chaos-creatures of all sorts (since I'd argue that the Slayer herself seems reminiscent at times of the Leviathan-loving side of the biblical god). In the end, he may come back to his faith, one could argue, but it's to a faith forever changed and deepened by his discovery of just how much there is "outside the margins" and "beyond the edges" of the orderly creation he was taught about in his Iowa Sunday school.
Maybe?
(no subject)
I think your idea is interesting, and plausible seeing as quite some screen time was devoted to the reiteration of Riley's faith. I'm not sure his faith was deepened, but I would argue that it was irrevocably changed.
I tended to see Riley as an example of the unquestioning, often extreme, conservatism prevalent in the military (I'm a military brat) and what happens when they realize the figures of authority are using them. But if one were to extend the general military metaphor to "soldiers of faith" and then reexamine Riley's arc, you'd have a point.
I'd try to make more of a point here, but those who know me know I post first, think much, much later.
Hope you develop this further, and I look forward to reading it here.
(no subject)
I think you're probably right about Riley being portrayed as far more of a representative of the institutional military rather than the institutional church (if you go by screen-time, at least: he shows up late for church once in "Who Are You?" in season 4, but otherwise his expressions of "faith" -- and therefore his crises of faith -- seem to be focused upon his commitment to the military and his self-image as being therefore "on the right side").
However, with a dearth of other candidates to represent actual church-going Christians in Sunnydale (in spite of Willow's comment about the Hellmouth vibes making people pray harder), it's also easy to see how Riley's faith can become a matter for much speculation.
btw, One of the first books I found really useful in my research might be of interest to you, also: Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character, by Jonathan Shea, M.D. (1995). Shea writes about the intertwining of losses of "faith" in various institutions (military, religious, and, of course, family) in bringing about the "berserker" and PTSD phenomena. He makes a big thing of the fact that armies, churches, and families all have a similar power to "create our reality" and therefore have incredible power to mess us up, when they prove to be dysfunctional or destructive.
(no subject)
(no subject)
I think that things like hatered, fears, addiction, are things that need an invite. That's not to say the blame falls on the person that suffers from these things because we all know how tempting it is to let that pale guy in for coffee and all they need is one foot in.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
Btw, I found an extra toothpaste in the bathroom when I was packing up, and MissM swears it's not hers. If it's yours, I'll be happy to mail it to you. Just let me know.
(And I'm still kicking myself over not having gotten a redcap to carry your suitcase, as well as the person with the wheelchair, when we got to the airport. I guess my brain can only hold one idea at a time -- "Find wheelchair!" -- and tossed out everything else. I hope you got through to your gate all right, anyway?)
It's kind of a sermon that stuck with me.
Don't worry about the toothpaste and I got to the gate fine.
(no subject)
You wrote:
I find this proposed distinction between Jossian demons (defined along the lines of "demons happen!", one might say) and the demons associated with much popular Christian theology (more like, "if demons happen, you must've opened the door for them somehow") really fascinating.
As a former Presbyterian, now Episcopalian, I'm not sure I'd posit the distinction in exactly that either/or. More of a both/and--in the sense the the really horrible monstrous things which we experience appear metaphorically in the Buffyverse as "demons in a real sense"--physical demons and monsters, even vampires (generic ones, anyway), that can be killed or "dusted"--as in real life our trials must be fought and overcome. There are also demons one "opens the door for"--spiritual beings--the First Evil was the closest to such to appear on BtVS.
For the record, I don't believe there's a necessary one-to-one correlation between behavior and consequences, good or bad, because anyone can see that's not so. On the other hand, some actions are just asking for trouble, like inviting vampires in.
(no subject)
On the other hand, what I come up against most often is how reluctant many of us are to acknowledge that evil things happen to good people, and that "being good" and "doing as you're told" are not a gilt-edged guarantee of health, wealth, and happiness. I particularly find that in some of my more sheltered introductory bible students, who've been taught a comforting theology of "immunity guaranteed". From my perspective, that has the potential to cause all sorts of trouble in their lives, and in the lives of others, if they decide they can't resist the urge to be "Job's Comforters".
Does that make things any clearer?
(no subject)
(no subject)
If I take the liberty of using the fight against demons as a metaphor for a life of faith. Early Buffy had this, her life didn't just suck because life was that way. It sucked *extra* because of her calling but she made the choice to live joyfully anyway even when she wasn't happy.
I'm not sure Riley had this skill because he seemed to be so sheltered. His happiness and his strength depended more on the outside world. What people thought of him and where he fit in world. It might not be a fair assessment as we saw Buffy tested again and again but Riley only once.
By the time season six came around Buffy was making lemonade the way she made it parent teacher night, without sweetener but that's another post.
(no subject)
Willow's experimentations with both magic and sexual orientation, Xander's experimentations with jobs - who should I be, Giles experimenting with mid-life crisis - what do I do now? Is this really where I should be? And then you have Riley - who had a plan, he was one of those people you meet who know who he was, what he wanted to be, and how he felt about things from the age of 6. 'I always wanted to join the military, to be an action hero..etc.' He likes authority - as is demonstrated by his devotion to Professor Walsh, to the extent that he even follows her advice regarding Buffy. (Note he does not follow the advice of his teammates/friends who tell him prior to his discussion with Walsh to pursue the girl. But when Prof Walsh says she likes Buffy, Riley perks up and starts pursuing in earnest.) Riley is the opposite of Angel in every sense of the word - except physical. He is what Buffy may have wished Angel was. The safe, normal boyfriend. He is also the opposite of Angel in religion. Angelus/Angel scoffs at religion and authority. Riley is the opposite - Riley respects authority, respects religion, respects structure.
Riley represents the status quo. Normality. At least in Buffy's pov. The normal, traditional course. When she breaks up with Riley and ends up having an affair with Spike - Spike is the opposite. As far from Riley as she could get. Disrespectful of authority, religion, normality.
Yet, as we learn in Beneath You, Spike does respect and believe in God and religion. He's just not into the rules and structure of it. And it is the rules and structure of religion that Buffy herself is grappling with. She keeps breaking the rules or going around them or questioning them.
For Riley - the rules and structure were what mattered. He's not unlike the people who go to church not so much because they believe in God, but because they happen to like to go to church and like the structure of the church they belong to. They like the rules. When that gets stripped away from him - which happens three times in the series, he goes nuts, loses himself. Each time he goes back to that structure, those rules, that organization - he is happy, strong, in charge.
I've known quite a few people in my life who join religions because they need a structure to their lives, they need a set of superimposed values and guidelines to follow. They crave that.
IT comforts them and makes them happy. And taken to an extreme - it can become a cultish - which is shown with Adam in S4 BTVS and Jasmine in S4 ATS.
(TBC...because I can't figure out how to cut more words to make it fit in the little posting box)
(no subject)
In AYW S6, Riley manages to find a balance. He rediscovers the structure that makes him feel safe, locates a woman who appreciates that structure for the same reasons he does, yet at the same time realizes that there are things that lie outside of it - outside of the rules (Spike, OZ, Buffy are all examples). Whedon forshadows this resolution in Restless - where he depicts Riley leaving Buffy in her dream. He doesn't leave because Buffy is part demon, as she fear's, but because her life is more chaotic than he can handle. He is somewhat cruel when he leaves - stating that she does not love him, when in reality it is that she does not love him enough to change her life for him, to leave her world for his as he believes he's left his world for hers. He feels he's the only one who made the sacrifice. And he is not entirely wrong, except what he doesn't acknowledge is that Buffy did make an effort in S4 to join his world - granted it was short lived, but she did try.
I would not go so far as to state that Riley's view, religion or way is wrong, nor do I think the writers have stated that. "As You Were" clearly demonstrates this - showing how you can live in that world and make it work for you. What is wrong is trying to force someone else into a role that does not work for them - making them become what you want them to become out of love for you - a theme that seems to encompass both shows and I think does hit upon religion. Too many religions seek to impose their views on others. I think Riley's journey may be an examination of how you find what is best for you without imposing it on someone else.
(no subject)
Very interesting!
(no subject)
The theme of order vs. chaos is consistent in all of Whedon's tales - from BTVS-Firefly. And he explores the negative and positive aspects of both. Wolf Ram & Hart symbolize order in Angel's universe, Jasmine is a demon of order, yet the Beast which brings her into fruitation - chaos.
In Buffy - we have the Mayor, obsessed with order as well as Adam, while on the chaos side - Angelus/Spike/Dru/and to an extent Glory. The First Evil and Caleb represent both. In Firefly - we see it represented in the "Alliance" vs. "The Reavers", with the crew of Firefly representing the middle ground.
It's a problem in many religions, I think - finding that balance. Knowing when to control and when to allow people to come to their conclusions. The difference between dictating and guiding, because God does not dictate so much as guide us, if God dictated there would not be free will. People think that if you make everything orderly, structured, evil won't exist. (Recently I had a conversation with someone who actually said Hitler had the right idea, he was a good leader, because he imposed order. Dictated how people should live their lives, that we should not have free will, and indeed have too many rights. So lives were lost, at least everyone had a job, food, shelter - much like Connor's justification of Jasmine - so people are eaten, at least everyone's happy. But there's no art, no creativity, and free will is gone. Many religions state the same thing - they dictate.)
Have you read Phillip Pullman's "His Dark Materials"? It is in some respects a counter-argument to the Christian beliefs of CS Lewis as depicted in the Narnia novels or the view of an "orderly" world. In it Pullman appears to state that without free will, we have nothing. That being controlled is worse than death. Whedon states the same thing. Yet, if we have no rules, no order, no structure - we will destroy ourselves. There has to be a middle ground.
The fight between the two extremes isn't just in religion, we see it in economic systems and government infrastructures. Anarchy on one side - Tolitarianism on the other. The systems that survive the longest are the ones that discover a middle ground.